Zelensky is the supplicant. Trump wants out, Zelensky really needed to bend the knee, however unpalatable that may have been. Railing at Trump gets us nowhere - he is what he is and the fact that Sen Graham agreed is significant. Zelensky should have handled this differently. Agreed Trump is a bully but that’s irrelevant. Softly, softly catchee etc.
What I observed watching that White House meeting was two bullies, with the maturity of average school yard thugs, ganging up on a strong man who has bravely led his own people for years against another thug, Putin, berating him in not his natural language. Putin set this up and Trump and Vance are badly disciplined actors playing their parts in a play written by the Russian.
Exactly. I cannot understand how anyone could watch that appalling encounter and then blame it on Zelensky. Such a brave man. Blaming him for Vance and Trump’s boorishness is as silly as blaming Ukraine for Russia invading it. Or calling Zelensky “a dictator.” Cranmer, you are spouting Russian talking points.
Rubio talking to Kaitlin Collins on CNN explained that from the US perspective the minerals deal is an implicit security guarantee since it will have economic interests in Ukraine. For the last 10 days, Ukrainian officials have repeatedly raised the security guarantee issue and had it explained to them. Rubio told Collins that the deal has been ready to sign for the last 5 days but the Ukrainians insisted on coming to the White House. The Americans were willing to do it but they didn't want to be lectured about how diplomacy should work in front of the world's media. The Oval Office meeting was intended to be a "grip and grin" photo op, not a negotiation. One European foreign minister told Rubio the Europeans would be fine with the war going on another year and then have Russia come to them seeking terms. The Americans suspect that Zelenskyy may also favour this approach which is why they sent him packing. Trump has made it very clear that he wants the war to end which was what he campaigned on. No doubt it is a bitter pill for Zelenskyy to swallow but his options are very limited at this point.
If you read the article - evidently this meeting did not stand alone in negotiations and there was significant volatility from Zelensky in previous meetings with top USA officials. He appears to not want a ceasefire before negotiations are concluded - negotiations which could take months and cost many other lives. But negotiations could take whatever time is needed after a ceasefire is put in place.
I also felt that President Trump and Vice President Vance did need to push Zelensky to reveal his real attitude - which they did. People are dying, JD Vance was a Marine and has seen death and maiming of soldiers up close and personal. It is time to stop the war, not get into another 10 year war funded by USA and costing many, many lives.
I think you are broadly right here Kath. Putting aside the theatre of the event it was pretty clear that the two sides were miles apart:
- Zelensky/Ukraine were prepared to enter into a rare earths minerals deal with the US on the basis that the US would give them a security guarantee and funds to continue the war against Russia. i.e. Zelensky still has no interest in a peace deal and is operating under the delusion that they can still prevail against Russia with US help
- Trump/USA were prepared to enter the deal on the basis that this will entrench US commercial interests in Ukraine and provide a revenue source for Ukraine to pay back what the US has already provided in aid AND to stop the war with Russia (largely on Russian terms. i.e. No NATO (ever) and loss of Crimea, Donbass to Russia forever. The US would NOT provide a security guarantee but their commercial presence in Ukraine would act as some level of deterrence to Russia. I'll explain below why this is the US position and it's not as some of the silly comments I've seen here and there, that it's because Trump is a Russian agent.
Against this backdrop Zelensky was exceedingly foolish to attempt to litigate these differences in the public eye (in what was an informal meeting before the serious business) and should have waited for the private meeting over lunch to air his views. It wouldn't have changed the outcome of course but there it is.
It has been suggested that Trump was shrewd enough to expose this in the public domain in order to bring about Zelensky's demise (which will surely follow) and gain public support for that but listening to the whole 50 minutes it seems to me it was Zelensky who was deluded enough to think he could force the Trump administration into "unconditional support" for Ukraine - pretty much what had previously been the status quo under Joe Biden. All I can say is that Zelensky and his team (including European elites) are deluded for the following reason no one is talking about - prepare to be shocked with disbelief:
- Trump and the US know (secretly) that the West have been served a strategic defeat in the Ukraine. In spite of spending the last 15 years or so helping the (nationalist) Ukrainian arm of Ukraine build up the strongest military personnel capability in Europe, providing NATO weapons, intelligence, and funds they ARE LOSING THE WAR WITH RUSSIA!
Why else would they be suing for peace? They know they've lost and Trump is keen to avoid being tarred with the brush of Biden... He's not a Putin puppet; he's just not living the delusion that Ukraine, Europe and the West in general are still labouring under.
What I saw was very different. It was two bad faith actors goading a principled man into a reasonable defense of his countries honor. Ukraine has real grievances, whereas Russian grievances are imagined or self-inflicted. Russia invaded Ukraine, lest you forget. That Trump labels Zelenskyy "a dictator" whilst lavishing praise on Putin is perverse. Russia has committed war crimes and continues to do so. The odious question asked about Zelenskyy's attire, and the scripted parroting of "America First" post-interview suggests this meeting was a sham with the outcome predetermined. For the US to take an economic interest in Ukraine is far from a security assurance, especially when Trump has expressed interest in doing the same in Russia. If Russia invades Ukraine again, it seems the USA will just ask them to respect the minerals deal made under duress with Zelenskyy. That won't matter much to Russia since they will already be dealing with the Americans in Russia. A fair deal would require Russia to give up the occupied land or allow Ukraine to have NATO membership to prevent another invasion.
Jenny I see you haven't acted on my previous advice and applied some critical thinking and research into your claims of an "unprovoked invasion"...
In relation to your comments on Trump both you and Garry ought/need to watch the full 50 minute interaction. It shows that for most of it it was reasonably cordial though Zelensky repeatedly tried to perform negotiations in the "court of public opinion" presumably in the hopes that Trump et al would be forced to adopt the standard anti-Russian tropes. One example of this silliness was bringing out a folder of photos presumably showing (we didn't really get to see) Russian military brutality.
Zelensky failed miserably and should not have tried - he failed to respect the Office of the US President and frankly deserved the ejection he got. "Come back when you are ready for peace" were Trumps words and that underscores the basic problem here. Go listen to John Meirsheimer and/or Jeffrey Sachs to get more details and a more nuanced assessment of things.
Thanks Malcolm. My perspective is simple. Who started the war? Putin. Who said Ukraine started the war? Trump. Who is playing the cards dealt to him by the master player, and former spy, Putin? Trump. All the same sort of tactics which were used by Hitler are being played out again by Trump and his billionaire acolytes. Read the history books. Zelensky brought pictures because he knew Trump isn't a reader and pays little, if any, attention to briefing notes.
Hi Garry. I appreciate your desire for a simple perspective. It was Einstein who stated (in relation to Physics) that "a theory should be as simple as possible but no simpler". Occam's razor is another term for it.
I think your perspective is a bit too simple to be reasonable. For example do you believe that every time in history that a war has been started that that party is the evil one? Or is it possible that, a bit like a punch up between two men, it is possible that the guy that took the first punch was provoked?
As a second point how do you think the war in Ukraine is going? Now it has been hard to understand this if you only look at MSM but take it from me Ukraine is losing this war and in spite of all the help NATO, US and Europe have provided they will lose. While no one in the west wants to admit this publicly Trump knows this and wants to dissociate himself/US from it. That's just realism NOT Putin pandering. Good grief man do you think a US president could "sell out" to Russia? - it would simply not be permitted by those around him.
I don't know what history books you are referring to but any comparisons between Hitler, Trump and Putin are sure to be tenuous at best. There's simply nothing in common between the circumstances.
Honestly Malcolm, are you trying to convince me that Trump listens to any advisors? Yes, I do think that Trump is often in awe of other bullies, and yes, I think that he is totally playing into Putin's hands. I have recently read a bloody long book on Hitler and his henchmen. The section on Hitler was 101 pages on its own! I kept rolling my eyes and muttering to my wife "this is reading likes Trump's manifesto". So, yes, I think how Hitler behaved, and Trump is carrying on now, is very similar.
I wasn't talking about his advisors - which could be yes men but there is a deep state apparatus (I don't mean "Deep State") that would not allow the US to fall into Russian control. If it could their democracy would be very fragile and in spite of its substantial weaknesses it's not that weak. There are checks and balances in the system (as there are in pretty much all systems) that make it implausible. Whether Trump has Hitler like personality disorders is kind of "who cares" - it's his actions that count not what the nature of his mind is - I don't really care if he'd secretly like to be Genghis Khan. Basically the US is run by oligarchs and corporate elites who like to make $$$$ and if they see Trump threatening that they'll stop him. Sure he's now potentially got a target on his back from the US arms industry but he's trying to make another bunch of investors happy with "rare earth" minerals. Plus they are going to turn their military attention to China next and get suckers like Australia, NZ and Europe to buy US weapons so they can conduct a proxy war in the South China sea. Are you on board for this one too?
Zelensky is the supplicant. Trump wants out, Zelensky really needed to bend the knee, however unpalatable that may have been. Railing at Trump gets us nowhere - he is what he is and the fact that Sen Graham agreed is significant. Zelensky should have handled this differently. Agreed Trump is a bully but that’s irrelevant. Softly, softly catchee etc.
What I observed watching that White House meeting was two bullies, with the maturity of average school yard thugs, ganging up on a strong man who has bravely led his own people for years against another thug, Putin, berating him in not his natural language. Putin set this up and Trump and Vance are badly disciplined actors playing their parts in a play written by the Russian.
Exactly. I cannot understand how anyone could watch that appalling encounter and then blame it on Zelensky. Such a brave man. Blaming him for Vance and Trump’s boorishness is as silly as blaming Ukraine for Russia invading it. Or calling Zelensky “a dictator.” Cranmer, you are spouting Russian talking points.
Rubio talking to Kaitlin Collins on CNN explained that from the US perspective the minerals deal is an implicit security guarantee since it will have economic interests in Ukraine. For the last 10 days, Ukrainian officials have repeatedly raised the security guarantee issue and had it explained to them. Rubio told Collins that the deal has been ready to sign for the last 5 days but the Ukrainians insisted on coming to the White House. The Americans were willing to do it but they didn't want to be lectured about how diplomacy should work in front of the world's media. The Oval Office meeting was intended to be a "grip and grin" photo op, not a negotiation. One European foreign minister told Rubio the Europeans would be fine with the war going on another year and then have Russia come to them seeking terms. The Americans suspect that Zelenskyy may also favour this approach which is why they sent him packing. Trump has made it very clear that he wants the war to end which was what he campaigned on. No doubt it is a bitter pill for Zelenskyy to swallow but his options are very limited at this point.
If you read the article - evidently this meeting did not stand alone in negotiations and there was significant volatility from Zelensky in previous meetings with top USA officials. He appears to not want a ceasefire before negotiations are concluded - negotiations which could take months and cost many other lives. But negotiations could take whatever time is needed after a ceasefire is put in place.
I also felt that President Trump and Vice President Vance did need to push Zelensky to reveal his real attitude - which they did. People are dying, JD Vance was a Marine and has seen death and maiming of soldiers up close and personal. It is time to stop the war, not get into another 10 year war funded by USA and costing many, many lives.
I think you are broadly right here Kath. Putting aside the theatre of the event it was pretty clear that the two sides were miles apart:
- Zelensky/Ukraine were prepared to enter into a rare earths minerals deal with the US on the basis that the US would give them a security guarantee and funds to continue the war against Russia. i.e. Zelensky still has no interest in a peace deal and is operating under the delusion that they can still prevail against Russia with US help
- Trump/USA were prepared to enter the deal on the basis that this will entrench US commercial interests in Ukraine and provide a revenue source for Ukraine to pay back what the US has already provided in aid AND to stop the war with Russia (largely on Russian terms. i.e. No NATO (ever) and loss of Crimea, Donbass to Russia forever. The US would NOT provide a security guarantee but their commercial presence in Ukraine would act as some level of deterrence to Russia. I'll explain below why this is the US position and it's not as some of the silly comments I've seen here and there, that it's because Trump is a Russian agent.
Against this backdrop Zelensky was exceedingly foolish to attempt to litigate these differences in the public eye (in what was an informal meeting before the serious business) and should have waited for the private meeting over lunch to air his views. It wouldn't have changed the outcome of course but there it is.
It has been suggested that Trump was shrewd enough to expose this in the public domain in order to bring about Zelensky's demise (which will surely follow) and gain public support for that but listening to the whole 50 minutes it seems to me it was Zelensky who was deluded enough to think he could force the Trump administration into "unconditional support" for Ukraine - pretty much what had previously been the status quo under Joe Biden. All I can say is that Zelensky and his team (including European elites) are deluded for the following reason no one is talking about - prepare to be shocked with disbelief:
- Trump and the US know (secretly) that the West have been served a strategic defeat in the Ukraine. In spite of spending the last 15 years or so helping the (nationalist) Ukrainian arm of Ukraine build up the strongest military personnel capability in Europe, providing NATO weapons, intelligence, and funds they ARE LOSING THE WAR WITH RUSSIA!
Why else would they be suing for peace? They know they've lost and Trump is keen to avoid being tarred with the brush of Biden... He's not a Putin puppet; he's just not living the delusion that Ukraine, Europe and the West in general are still labouring under.
What I saw was very different. It was two bad faith actors goading a principled man into a reasonable defense of his countries honor. Ukraine has real grievances, whereas Russian grievances are imagined or self-inflicted. Russia invaded Ukraine, lest you forget. That Trump labels Zelenskyy "a dictator" whilst lavishing praise on Putin is perverse. Russia has committed war crimes and continues to do so. The odious question asked about Zelenskyy's attire, and the scripted parroting of "America First" post-interview suggests this meeting was a sham with the outcome predetermined. For the US to take an economic interest in Ukraine is far from a security assurance, especially when Trump has expressed interest in doing the same in Russia. If Russia invades Ukraine again, it seems the USA will just ask them to respect the minerals deal made under duress with Zelenskyy. That won't matter much to Russia since they will already be dealing with the Americans in Russia. A fair deal would require Russia to give up the occupied land or allow Ukraine to have NATO membership to prevent another invasion.
Jenny I see you haven't acted on my previous advice and applied some critical thinking and research into your claims of an "unprovoked invasion"...
In relation to your comments on Trump both you and Garry ought/need to watch the full 50 minute interaction. It shows that for most of it it was reasonably cordial though Zelensky repeatedly tried to perform negotiations in the "court of public opinion" presumably in the hopes that Trump et al would be forced to adopt the standard anti-Russian tropes. One example of this silliness was bringing out a folder of photos presumably showing (we didn't really get to see) Russian military brutality.
Zelensky failed miserably and should not have tried - he failed to respect the Office of the US President and frankly deserved the ejection he got. "Come back when you are ready for peace" were Trumps words and that underscores the basic problem here. Go listen to John Meirsheimer and/or Jeffrey Sachs to get more details and a more nuanced assessment of things.
Thanks Malcolm. My perspective is simple. Who started the war? Putin. Who said Ukraine started the war? Trump. Who is playing the cards dealt to him by the master player, and former spy, Putin? Trump. All the same sort of tactics which were used by Hitler are being played out again by Trump and his billionaire acolytes. Read the history books. Zelensky brought pictures because he knew Trump isn't a reader and pays little, if any, attention to briefing notes.
Hi Garry. I appreciate your desire for a simple perspective. It was Einstein who stated (in relation to Physics) that "a theory should be as simple as possible but no simpler". Occam's razor is another term for it.
I think your perspective is a bit too simple to be reasonable. For example do you believe that every time in history that a war has been started that that party is the evil one? Or is it possible that, a bit like a punch up between two men, it is possible that the guy that took the first punch was provoked?
As a second point how do you think the war in Ukraine is going? Now it has been hard to understand this if you only look at MSM but take it from me Ukraine is losing this war and in spite of all the help NATO, US and Europe have provided they will lose. While no one in the west wants to admit this publicly Trump knows this and wants to dissociate himself/US from it. That's just realism NOT Putin pandering. Good grief man do you think a US president could "sell out" to Russia? - it would simply not be permitted by those around him.
I don't know what history books you are referring to but any comparisons between Hitler, Trump and Putin are sure to be tenuous at best. There's simply nothing in common between the circumstances.
Honestly Malcolm, are you trying to convince me that Trump listens to any advisors? Yes, I do think that Trump is often in awe of other bullies, and yes, I think that he is totally playing into Putin's hands. I have recently read a bloody long book on Hitler and his henchmen. The section on Hitler was 101 pages on its own! I kept rolling my eyes and muttering to my wife "this is reading likes Trump's manifesto". So, yes, I think how Hitler behaved, and Trump is carrying on now, is very similar.
I wasn't talking about his advisors - which could be yes men but there is a deep state apparatus (I don't mean "Deep State") that would not allow the US to fall into Russian control. If it could their democracy would be very fragile and in spite of its substantial weaknesses it's not that weak. There are checks and balances in the system (as there are in pretty much all systems) that make it implausible. Whether Trump has Hitler like personality disorders is kind of "who cares" - it's his actions that count not what the nature of his mind is - I don't really care if he'd secretly like to be Genghis Khan. Basically the US is run by oligarchs and corporate elites who like to make $$$$ and if they see Trump threatening that they'll stop him. Sure he's now potentially got a target on his back from the US arms industry but he's trying to make another bunch of investors happy with "rare earth" minerals. Plus they are going to turn their military attention to China next and get suckers like Australia, NZ and Europe to buy US weapons so they can conduct a proxy war in the South China sea. Are you on board for this one too?